S4, Ep. 2: Life Through the Eyes of a Disabled Black Pastor
Ordained Minister, Curtis Williams Jr. talks about his experience as a disabled Black church leader in America.
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Mandi: Mandi Frantz here welcoming you to my podcast - Find Your Beautiful: Life Through the Eyes of a Christian Disabled Woman.
Mandi: Thank you
so much for being willing to come onto my podcast and share about yourself. I'm
really excited for my listeners to learn more about you and just learn more
about disabled leadership in the church in general. So if you can introduce
yourself and just let us know a little bit about you.
Curtis: Sure. Thanks
again, Mandi for having me on. I definitely enjoy your show. It's a great
ministry, a great need, amongst the disabled community and church community
just to get that perspective. So definitely glad to be on the show with
you. My name is Curtis Williams, Jr. I
am 38 years old. From Detroit, Michigan originally. And, I'm a third generation
preacher. The Baptist church is where I was ordained originally. been about,
uh, since 2009 when I started ministry.
Married almost nine years to my wife, Shantelle. and I was born with
Arthrogryposis. So I spent a lot of time in hospitals as a kid with the therapy
and all that good stuff, the stretching and all that. I primarily get around in my power chair and
I'm a currently counseling student in grad school trying to get a master's
degree in professional counseling and got a couple more semesters left.
Mandi: That's
awesome. Thank you. And I feel like a lot of people, especially non-disabled
people don't really appreciate what it's like to find someone else who has the
same disability as you, how exciting that can really be. With Arthrogryposis
being considered a rare disability, I always get excited when there's someone
else in the space. So when I found out you had arthrogryposis, I was like, yes,
someone else who gets it! but I also love that, when I talk about disability on
this podcast, I often talk about how the same disability or the same diagnosis
can look very different across people. So it's really a spectrum. And the way
arthrogryposis affects me is different from how it affects you. So I just love
that we can kind of delve into that a little bit today, but, before we get into
the disability specific topic, I wanted to know what led you to becoming a
pastor.
Curtis: Yeah,
definitely. Certainly it was my dad.
Lost my dad last year in April, actually from COVID. So
Mandi: I'm sorry
to hear that.
Curtis: Thank you
and I appreciate it. Yeah. Um, but he, he was, uh, definitely somebody I wanted
to be just like, and still do. He pastored, was a preacher and, had uncles that
were preachers too. And then my grandfather was a pastor as well. So, yeah, I
really want to be like them. They were great, great examples of A godly man
and, you know, took care of the family and granddad was always excited about me
and always had me in front of the church reading scripture. And it was just a
great kind of a strength for me. I think dealing with a disability, this was
just an awesome way to know the Lord Jesus Christ and introduce me to Christ at
a young age. So, there was kind of this
on my heart for really most of my life to serve the Lord in that way, and then
develop a conviction for his word, a love for his word and a love for the Lord
Jesus Christ, I think just over time in that environment certainly grew to
appreciate that strength. I was able to trust God be okay, so to speak, with
this disability. So that was a big part of it. There's a lot of things that I'm
still learning about the pastor and, and in that work and I'm still just
looking to God, to, you know, keep showing me how he wants to use that ministry
in my life with my disability and my situation at home. But yeah, it's always
something I think, was on my heart and I, it felt great to say, Hey, I could be
useful to God and to the world even though I'm disabled because of this conviction
and desire.
Mandi: I love the
fact that you have this twofold calling where you were following in your
father's footsteps, and your grandfather's so the family footsteps, but also, I
think it's just so important for people to know that you had that personal
calling too where it wasn't just trying to follow in your family's footsteps,
but also the fact that you had this personal or have this personal relationship
with God and felt led and called to the role independent of your family. So
that's awesome.
Curtis: Yeah,
definitely. Uh, you know, cause that was always kind of inspiration in my
family, which is, which is nice. But just knowing that I was much more than,
than an inspiration. Um, and then it wasn't as easy as it looked to, maybe
others who saw me try to trust God and work hard and have a disability, but to,
uh, to know that, you know, um, I, I really do have to, um, have my own kind
of, kind of strength there to deal with what was happening with me.
Mandi: Yeah. You mentioned that you have a disability and
you're a pastor, so I'd love to know how does arthrogryposis affect your daily
life?
Curtis: Yeah. Um,
yeah, it's, uh, you know, affected at all, uh, you know, four limbs, upper and
lower extremities, um, with, with AMC, um, pretty much we've had the same
contraction. My dad always tells me, in my wrist, in my knees and that kind of
thing. I was born With the club feet which is common with our condition. And,
uh, so at about two months old they did the surgery to correct the club feet.
Um, so it kind of diffused a situation there which does allow me to kind of
bear weight on my feet, but, um, not, you know, at some point that can be a
lot, you know, in terms of standing or something like that, uh, where there's
pain involved in that. It definitely
limits my range of motion and muscle tone.
With feeding myself or brushing my teeth or things like that, I tend to
like lay into the table, the sink and kind of using, uh, like the tricep
muscle. We don't tend to have ability to bend our elbow. Just leaning into the table or leaning into
sinks or, whatever I'm able to shave my beard or, or things like that in a limited
manner. So I, I do need assistance with, with, uh, you know, getting dressed
and shower and things like that. Getting out of the house, I don't have an
accessible vehicle, uh, just yet as a wife helps a lot with those kinds of
things. So yeah, I function, but certainly with, with, um, adaptations and with
great effort. Just have to do things a bit differently. So yeah, it definitely
affects mobility and getting around, get around in my home, primarily using
like an office stool. So scoot around in
that and kinda throw my arms up on stuff, sinks and, uh, tables and things like
that. Or to table my desk to write, or,
Mandi: Yeah, I
chuckled at that only because I, you know, to others that sounds like probably
so weird, but I can literally, it's the same thing I do. So I understand that
so much.
Curtis: Definitely.
Mandi: So I want
to talk a little bit about the intersection of disability and church
leadership. And with you being a leader of a church, how do you feel that the church
can better prepare and equip themselves for disabled leadership?
Curtis: That's a
great question. I think the first thing
is really to just allow ourselves to be educated by it, you know, um, you know,
for me, uh, I, I did some church planting and, uh, currently I'm not pastoring
a church, but, did church planting. I
was over my dad's church for a short time and on some other staffs and those
around me understood the, to some degree, the challenges and those kinds of
things, they knew me. But, um, yeah, we definitely had to do a lot better, I
think, in a church of, of, uh, of understanding various disabilities. Um, I
think we can talk, uh, you know, in the past, just in terms of interpreting
scripture, you know, uh, In a better way where we understand that God, I mean,
if he's the one that's at work in us both to willing to work according to his
good pleasure, um, that he's the one doing it, whether we're disabled or not
disabled, you know? Um, and no matter what our abilities are, you know, God
desires to use all of us in various ways. I think really getting, getting
people like yourself as an advocate in front of the church and just more. Even
our disabled church members, um, just really allowing ourselves to be educated
about these kinds of things. I've had those conversations really. Um, I think,
uh, to, to kind of open those things up. And then, because I think the
individual, the disabled individuals, the one that, uh, you know, the church
has to understand, um, you know, what those needs are, you know what I wanted
to sing in the choir as a kid my granddad had them tear down the steps to the
pulpit, you know, to the choir stand.
Mandi: Wow.
Curtis: Put a ramp
up. And so he did that for his grandson, you know, and it was awesome, but I,
so things like that has to, has to be more of understanding, I think, and
openness from, from so many of us in leadership in the church at large, to
understand what those, what those needs might be.
Mandi: I really
love that. And I love that story because the way you said he's doing it for his
grandson. But when I think about church and people always refer to church
family, or your church home, and this idea that, you know, everyone who's in
the church, especially church leadership should be willing to knock down pews
and build ramps and all of that because everyone in the church is family under
Christ and so I love that. And I had a very similar experience in a church that
I was going to where it wasn't family that did that, but I wanted to be a part
of the worship team, but, either they were kind of higher than me because they
were up on the, on the stage or the alter. And I would be, you know, kind of
down on ground level or they would all have to be on ground level and it was
hard to see, you know, we were not up on the stage. So. When they decided to do
renovations, they actually did put in a ramp. And I remember just going in one
day, I didn't even know that it was going to happen. I just went in one day and
they were like, look like we did this for you. Um, and I was like in tears, it
was such an amazing experience. And I have since left that church, but one of
the most powerful things, I think that came out of that besides my own personal
fulfillment of feeling loved and respected and seen by my church was that I
heard stories that since then other people, and not just people in wheelchairs,
but you know, people who just couldn't access the steps, whether it was because
of age or a surgery or various reasons, were able to go up to the alter and,
you know, be up there because of that ramp and that for me was just so powerful
to realize, you know, yes, it may have been done for me, but it really paved
the way for other people. And I imagine that's probably what happened with you
as well, where it was done for you, but it really paved the way and made it
accessible for everyone.
Curtis: Absolutely.
Yeah, no, absolutely. Uh, no, that, that's, that's such a great, um, and it
just really great to even hear you, um, share your experience, because just to
have it normalized and to know someone else having the same experience. Yeah.
It's, you know, we're often like those pioneer with it, and it it's so
interesting that, that, you know, like you said, other individuals Whether or
not speaking up or, or just not being a conversation about it happened to need
those accommodations too. And it just shows how needed the conversation is to
have that, but yeah, I think it was just a great blessing to know when we
pioneer things in that regard, you know,
Mandi: Yeah I have
to say this, like, I, I've kind of been holding back on saying it because I
don't want it to sound like cocky or like I'm taking credit, but I just feel
really led by the Spirit to say that it's such an interesting concept to think
that like we, as the disabled people could be opening up the physical way and the barriers that people may
experience be experiencing to access God, like people who feel like they can't
get up to the alter or can't reach the pastor for prayer or whatever. Having
that access because someone like us either voiced the need or just made the
need more obvious, opens the way for other people to be ministered to in deeper
and more meaningful ways, which gives them just a greater experience with God.
So just, amazing.
Curtis: Definitely.
No, I definitely agree with that. I know God, he definitely uses that.
Absolutely.
Mandi: Yeah. So,
one of the neat things is you really intersect a lot of different things, you
know, church and disability. But also being a black man in America. So you kind
of have all these different intersections. with everything that's been going
on, especially with the heightened awareness of racial issues in our society,
I'd love to know what is your experience being a black disabled man in America
today?
Curtis: Like you
said there's so much happening now with racial tension and political tension in
the world right now. My experience has definitely been evolving it's currently
can just continue to change and, um, you know, I think I'm continuing to, to
look at my experiences, maybe interpret them a little differently today. Largely I think my upbringing was somewhat
sheltered. Parents wanted to have us in some better neighborhoods and things
and they were in, and, um, the, our church was on Detroit East side. They I had
some sheltering there where they kind of wanted to keep us from some
experiences but as I got older, I remember being with my brother just visiting,
um, the old neighborhood where my grandparents lived and uncles and aunts lived
and we were just in my brother's sports car in the old neighborhood in Detroit.
And we were getting pulled over. I probably was like, almost college-aged late
nineties, early two thousands was the time, but I was in college and I was
getting pulled over and we were asked to get out of the car and they asked me
to get out of the car. I didn't want refuse that. Uh, you know, and so I said
hey I'm disabled, but tried to stand up and I'm able to kind of stand up or
whatever. My brother, he was really freaking out. But I, I was having to kind
of be calm and not escalate to something beyond that because, you know, we
don't look disabled if we're just in the car, you don't know that. So
experiences like that, especially if I'm, if I'm at my wheelchair, my brother
carried me to a barbershop or something like that. Um, as he often did when I
was younger, um, you know, you don't know that. So experiences like that were
definitely things that we experienced at different times. And then, I kind of
got older, being around some other churches and other people in the area I live
in now, with like my spouse is, she's a Puerto Rican and black, and she looks
white to many people. so I get those looks and those things where you combine
like a public affection, I'm holding her hand and to where like being disabled
and holding my wife's hand or something like that, it seemed a certain negative
way. And then also, uh, if they think she's white, that's also a part of that,
or if we're out somewhere and it looks, we get the stares, we get comments. So,
I've tried to really look at trusting God in that situation, but also trying to
advocate for people that like myself, others that I see are going through that
kind of duel kind of a situation like that. So, yeah, it definitely is
something that I've been really prayerful about and really trying to help
people really be honest about our, I think our country and what we need and
where our issues are.
Mandi: Well first,
let me just say that I'm so sorry that you have had to experience those things
because while I can definitely empathize and sympathize from the disability
perspective, I am Puerto Rican, but I present white. I'm very fair skin and so
in a lot of ways I benefit from white privilege. And so I haven't had to have
those kinds of racial experiences that you've had. So I just want to apologize
that you've had to go through that because no one should have to experience
that. But I also really resonate with what you said about when you're in a car
or even in today's world on zoom, when you're just looking from the shoulders
up, you can't tell that we have disabilities and I literally just said that
last week in my episode about being fatherless, how my paternal grandmother,
one of the last things that I remember her saying to my mom was, you know, she
came down to see me and I was in a car and she told my mom, you know, looking
at her through the car window, I didn't even know she was disabled and I had
said that I remember that she wanted it to be like a compliment. I think she meant
it as a compliment, but it just never sat well with me, you know? So I really
resonate with that.
Curtis: Yeah, I
can understand that. I can, you know, I mean, I think, I think getting from
social media now, I think I probably didn't think about these comments the way
I do now. I just was always Oh, be strong and ignore and this and that. And I
realized how much I needed to process more things, but yeah, I mean the
comments of you look so normal or you look this way or that to be disabled, or,
you know, if it's handsome or pretty or whatever these things people say.
Mandi: Oh my
goodness. You're like twinning with me right now. Really. I mean, I always said
that. You know, when people would compliment me and I, and I never am sure if
this is just like an insecurity on my part or if this is really how it is, like
just kind of a micro-aggression, but I've always said when people on the street
feel the need to be like, Oh, you're so pretty, I feel like there's kind of
this dot, dot, dot, you know, like, I feel like it's always, this you're so
pretty to be in a wheelchair or you're so pretty for being disabled. So I totally, totally resonate with what
you're saying.
Curtis: Yeah. I
think it's an energy that like, we, we feel, I mean, I don't think it's trying
to maybe be sensitive or insecure, but I, I think it's at times and coming from
certain people, a certain energy, like on our church, we've been to, that may
be more predominantly a white just hearing from certain people that we'll talk
about me being educated or, or, you know, um, or certain thing, and I know it's
a compliment and, I do appreciate it, but sometimes the energy is just kinda
like, you know, do you mean in ref, do you mean, uh, as opposed to other black
people or others, or as opposed to what you would think about someone being a
minority and being disabled and how that, it must be so tough and yet you've
overcome. So yeah, I think there's an energy there sometime that we just feel
and pick up on. And I understand that.
Mandi: For sure.
My last request of you as we're wrapping up, you know, you shared a lot of
wisdom already, but we have a lot of people who are either disabled or really
wanting to understand the disability experience and are on their own journey of
trying to be independent or trying to be the best disabled person they can be,
or trying to be the best ally to the disability community that they can be. So
I would just love for you to leave us with some words of wisdom for people who
are trying to find their beautiful.
Curtis: Okay.
Yeah, I can definitely try. I really love that slogan of yours, you know, find
your beautiful, because I think it is really important and for me it's been a
really powerful, to always, I think it, in terms of myself or look at myself
through the eyes of, of God Christ, try not to look at myself through the eyes
of society. I was telling a group of young people other day, actually for, it
was a training for people who were disabled with employment. And, um, I was
talking about the importance of really knowing what you can do or focusing on
what you can do because that's always been something that I've tried to do in
my own life is just focus on what I can do. Secondly, to be, to stay excited
about what you can do. Things I think is really important to do that. Um, and
to know that, like what we can do, what we're able to do, it comes from God,
God is working in us, but he's the one that's allowing us to do anything at
all. And so I always tried to stay excited about what I can do, because it's,
it's like the very hand of God doing it through me, no matter how small was, if
it was me figuring out something for my own independence or whatever it was,
um, you know, I like to lift weights. And so if there's a goal of a certain
amount of weight or this or that, I just try to stay excited about what I can
do, because to me that's a reflection of, you know, God's image, we're
operating in his image and we're all beautiful because he made us just period.
And so I, I try to, I think staying excited about those abilities are, are
really important and can help a person that I think find their beautiful.
Mandi: I love that
you're saying not just recognizing what you're able to do, but being excited
about what you're able to do and recognizing that those abilities are from God
so doing what you can for him and with the greatest passion that you can, I
think is amazing.
Curtis: Definitely,
absolutely.
Mandi: Well, thank
you so much. I really appreciate you sharing and your transparency and just
being willing to share with me and my listeners, your story and your
experiences, and definitely hope that we can stay in touch. I think we have a
lot more to even connect on in the future. So we'd definitely love to have you
on a future episode.
Curtis: Definitely.
Absolutely. I appreciate you for having me on thank you so much. And, and
you're very welcome thank you so much.
[Mandi voiceover to 'Compton' music]: Lessons we can't forget. That's what I'll be talking about next week. ‘Til next time Beauties.
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